THE NEW TRANSSEXUALS

Annie Sprinkle

Has a hands-on fetish for Trans guys

Photo: Joegh Bullock

George Petros: HERE WE ARE, SPEAKING TO ANNIE SPRINKLE. ANNIE, WHAT’S YOUR STORY?

Annie Sprinkle: I’ve been a big cheerleader of Transgendered people and causes, and a part of the Transgender community, and I had Transgendered partners. I was a porn star in New York for twenty years, and a prostitute, and then I transitioned into a performance artist and got a Ph.D. in human sexuality.

WHERE IS THAT FROM?

Annie Sprinkle: Institute for the Advanced Study of Human Sexuality in San Francisco.

IMPRESSIVE.

Annie Sprinkle: And I’ve been a sex educator as well. You could say I’ve been exploring the sacred and profane for thirty-eight years — exploring human sexuality for thirty-eight years in all its glorious and inglorious forms.

AND WHAT CONCLUSION DO YOU DRAW ABOUT IT? ARE WE GOING TO SURVIVE AS A SPECIES?

Annie Sprinkle: Not if we keep destroying the Earth. Whether there’ll be air to breathe and water to drink is another question — but as far as sex goes, I would say that it’s a topic as big as life itself.

YES IT IS.

Annie Sprinkle: And the more you learn, the more you realize there’s more to learn in terms of Transgenderism. I think it’s very much evolving and changing — and I’ve been around Transgendered people for decades. So, the words change, the politics change, the styles change. I do a lot of college gigs, and I meet so many Trans people everywhere — there’s so many more. Everything changes — and I still think we have a long way to go.

YOU DO NOT IDENTIFY YOURSELF AS A TRANSGENDERED INDIVIDUAL —

Annie Sprinkle: No. I’m a lover of Transgendered people. A lover — that’s my niche. I’m a lover. A supporter and lover — although my partner is not Transgendered; she’s eco-sexual.

OKAY —

Annie Sprinkle: Anyway, there was an F-to-M support group in New York, and there was one in San Francisco The New York group met at my apartment, so I knew a lot of Transgendered people. A film I was in and co-produced, Linda/Les & Annie: The First Female-to-Male Transsexual Love Story, was the first female-to-male Transgender porn. I used to hang out in Times Square; I worked at Show World. I’d go shop at Lee Brewster’s Mardi Gras Boutique, which was a Trans boutique. And then there was Show Palace, Tango Palace — a lot of Transgender people entered the sex industry because it was one of the only jobs they could get. And the Meat Packing District — there were a lot of Transgender prostitutes there.

YES THERE WERE.

Annie Sprinkle: I was going to talk about this idea of eroticizing Transgendered people. I don’t know if that’s a good thing or a bad thing —

OR AN UNAVOIDABLE THING.

Annie Sprinkle: Yeah — and making Transgendered people into sex gods and goddesses.

THAT SOUNDS WONDERFUL. BUT FIRST, BACK TO THE BASICS: YOU WORKED AS A PROSTITUTE AND A PORN STAR, AND YOU’VE PROBABLY DONE A BIT OF EVERYTHING IN THAT REGARD.

Annie Sprinkle: I was born in 1954. I moved to New York when I was eighteen, in ’73, and worked in sex work — mainstream — for twenty years, and then transitioned more into art and experimental and post-porn, and then became a sexologist.

HOW DID YOU BECOME A PROSTITUTE?

Annie Sprinkle: I was just being a young Hippie. I didn’t have a bad upbringing; I had a good upbringing. I really had the sensibility of an artist, and it was a Hippie time — so it’s free-love time — and I sort of lucked into it, but then quickly got into porn. I sold popcorn at the theater where Deep Throat was playing, and I met Gerard Damiano, the director of Deep Throat. So, I became his mistress, came to New York, and worked in massage parlors. I got into porn. I wanted to make films and I liked sex, so it went together very nicely.

DID YOU HAVE SPECIALTIES WHEN YOU WERE WORKING?

Annie Sprinkle: Well, I think I did it all, sort of. I was up for kink and fetish and body fluids and enthusiasm and humor —

WERE YOU GETTING HIGH?

Annie Sprinkle: I was never a drug addict or an alcoholic, but I tried all the drugs and I had some drinks.

I SEE.

Annie Sprinkle: I tried all the drugs. Absolutely, yeah. I was a chocolate-chip cookie addict.

WHAT WAS THE FIRST PORN MOVIE YOU MADE?

Annie Sprinkle: I started out with one-day wonders — feature films shot in a day or two. Then I did a few six- and seven-day shoots. This is right after Deep Throat and The Devil In Miss Jones — you could say it was the Golden Age of porn. I was a starlet for quite awhile, but then in ’82 I made a film called Deep Inside Annie Sprinkle — a big seller — and that’s when I kinda became a star. I also worked at a lot of sex magazines as a writer and photographer. I remember when the first Transgender centerfold came out in a Heterosexual men’s magazine that was on newsstands — it was Jill Monroe.

WHICH MAGAZINE WAS THAT?

Annie Sprinkle: I think it was Cheri. She died of a drug overdose. She also did some porn movies, which I was in — one was called Centerfold Fever. And another was called Consenting Adults, which was shot at my apartment. Les Barany, your friend and my friend, helped with just about everything. He was a very big part of this story. He taught me photography, in the beginning. He showed me how to process black-and-white film.

HE’S A MENTOR TO MANY PEOPLE.

Annie Sprinkle: Yeah. So, Consenting Adults was shot at my apartment. Jill Monroe was in that film, and Marc Stevens. He was a porn star. He was bisexual. Well, he was really pretty Gay — but he was Straight for pay. He married Jill Monroe in a big kind of performance wedding. It wasn’t a legal wedding but it was just so shocking — here was this public Transsexual person getting married, and that was kind of radical at that time. Anyway, I did a film for Kim Christie called Orgy At Poysinberry Bar — I was making porn with Transsexuals who were taking female hormones and sometimes it was a little tricky to get it up — I remember one scene, it was a little tricky because she was into guys but she had to fuck me. She wasn’t into women really but, you know, it was an orgy. There were some guys there, and so they helped her get it up — and then she kind of fucked me. A male-to-female Transsexual! Back then they were called She-males. Now that’s considered a derogatory term — and inaccurate — but at the time, it was a bridge that helped Heterosexual men be a little bit more open to this, because “She-male” implied that it was a she — a half-woman, half-man kinda thing —

HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THE FACT THAT MANY OF THE TERMS WE GREW UP WITH ARE BEING RETIRED?

Annie Sprinkle: Well, there’s the sex-negative perspective and the sex-positive perspective. I have a very sex-positive perspective. When I did the film Linda/Les & Annie —

YOU USED THE TERM “HERMAPHRODITE” IN THERE —

Annie Sprinkle: Yeah, I used the word “Hermaphrodite” because he had a penis and a vagina. Now that would be politically incorrect — because he had transitioned to male — but I think these were kinda like bridges or ways of introducing these topics to popular culture. I think that porn had a big effect. I think a lot of people would say, “Oh, porn was bad for Transsexuals —” If you look up famous Transsexuals on Wikipedia, there’s a lot of prostitutes and porn stars. That was the work you could get if you were transitioning. You couldn’t always get a straight job — because you didn’t fit in.

RIGHT.

Annie Sprinkle: I think when you’re given the gift of being really sexy — and in my opinion a lot of Transgendered people are erotically gifted and extremely sexy and desirable — if you’ve been given that gift, sometimes it involves sad things. A lot of prostitutes were really fucked-up on drugs and alcohol because they didn’t fit in and they were miserable and unhappy. They didn’t really want to be doing sex work; they wanted to be straight. They wanted to be normal. You could see this über-sexiness as a bad thing; I see it as a gift. I believe that some people have a calling to be sex workers — but with the drugs and alcohol, they can be doing things they really didn’t want to. They didn’t have a lot of choices in the Seventies and Eighties.

TRUE.

Annie Sprinkle: Prostitution probably paid for more sex-change surgeries than any other business.

VERY LIKELY.

Annie Sprinkle: I think it’s had a huge impact. Now — today — there’s more choices, but you still have a lot of Transgender people trying to raise money for their surgeries and their enhancements and their plastic surgery and their genital surgery and their breast surgery. It’s no secret that Transgender porn was enormously popular, and I think it helped normalize — this is radical stuff to say — but I think it helped the Civil Rights movement. You know, this whole thing of interracial marriage — the more people saw Black people fucking White people, the more it helped normalize it. I think that’s the case with Transgender porn. I can just see the hackles go up on some academics —

WELL, THAT’S OKAY. ACADEMICS AREN’T ALWAYS RIGHT.

Annie Sprinkle: Today, the youngsters — they’re very different from the Seventies, Eighties, Nineties. They’re very different. Experience — they’re just so much more out and happy with themselves, and have more options, and they are sex-positive. When Linda/Les & Annie came out, it was a hardcore porn film and Les Nichols was paranoid schizophrenic for real. He had some emotional stuff — very sexy, very, very smart — but he had a paranoia problem. I tried to make him look as normal as possible. I saw Les as really sexy, and I interacted with his female genitals. You know, his vagina and his clitoris — but also, he had a surgically-made penis. Somebody wrote in this F-to-M newsletter or something, kinda panning the movie, saying, “We have to put our best foot forward — and this is not our best foot.” I think it’s a really sweet, loving, darling movie — but at that time, the F-to-Ms were trying to be normal. I was trying to say that Les was perfect the way he was. I’m trying to say that he’s sexy — you know? I had always adored them, and I found Transgendered people extraordinarily sexy. It’s a question of objectifying. There’s a way to objectify people — erotically, sexually — that makes them feel good, and there’s a way that it can be done that makes people feel horrible. I think I was very nice and respectful about it. It was really from the heart as well as the clit. A lot of people see Transgender porn, and the sex worker in general, as a bad thing. Well, I think it helps to normalize and to show the uniqueness and the specialness and the magic and the beauty of Transgendered people. Linda/Les & Annie — I can’t tell you how many F-to-Ms have come up to me thanking me for that film. It wasn’t a big seller, but it played a lot of film festivals. It played a lot of college campuses, so a lot of young people saw it. That really helped me understand who I was. So, it had both the controversy and the appreciation.

THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO WORRY ABOUT THIS STUFF —

Annie Sprinkle: Yeah. So, anyways the F-to-Ms that met at my apartment — the group wasn’t just for F-to-Ms; it was for F-to-Ms and the people who loved them. They would come with their partners and do a support group — and it was like a hanging-out, a social. It was really fun. I was always flirting with them, and a lot them that came were in the closet. Their girlfriends didn’t even know. They came alone. They were terrified to tell their girlfriends. A few were Gay, and they’d start talking about things like menopause or hormones or driver’s licenses. It was agony — they were struggling so much in that group. There was so much pain, so much struggle, so much wanting to pass. I tried to support them and love them up and of course be flirty with some of them, and they liked that. Once, we had a big party at my place — it was called the Sprinkle Salon. Two of the guys got bottom surgery and I said, “Let’s have a party and celebrate!” So they both came, and their penises were just a total disaster mess — but they’re like, “Oh my god!” They were both so happy. These were like horrendous painful surgeries, and they still had tubes and bandages and all that. All these sex-positive and porn-star and sex-worker friends, and all these really positive women, came and adored them and loved them up and said, “Wow, it’s incredible!” They were trying to be supportive. So, it was a really special night.

YOU WERE INVOLVED WITH TRANSSEXUALITY BEFORE MOST PEOPLE HAD EVER HEARD OF IT —

Annie Sprinkle: Exactly. So, then I met Les Nichols there at the group. Some of them really were passing and living as men, but they didn’t have the bottom surgery or they didn’t have the male driver’s license. I mean, the pain and the struggling of the early days — But anyways, maybe we should move on to other topics.

YES.

Annie Sprinkle: Ultimately, I moved out of New York. I inched my way back to California. I went to Long Island — East Hampton, for awhile — then I went to Provincetown, and then I came to San Francisco — but I’m from L.A.; my family’s in L.A., or originally from there.

I LOVE L.A.

Annie Sprinkle: But we were talking about New York’s Meat Packing District — there were lots of tricks being turned in cars around there.

AND NOT EVERY CUSTOMER KNEW THEY WERE WITH A TRANSGENDERED PERSON.

Annie Sprinkle: I would say, no, not everybody — but most did. That’s where you went if you were looking for it. I think a lot of people knew. The prostitutes would stand out there half-naked in really hot outfits — very flamboyant — and then go between the trucks or in cars — and it’s just unimaginable now with all the fancy stores and restaurants and designers down there. Amazing. But yeah, it was very exciting, very mysterious — and I did go down there and take pictures a lot, because I was a prostitute and I was very interested in documenting prostitution.

WHAT TURNS YOU ON ABOUT TRANSGENDERED FOLKS? YOU WERE SAYING HOW SEXY AND HOW HOT THEY ARE —

Annie Sprinkle: Well, there’s a kind of a magical, special quality that’s unique. It’s not all male or all female; there’s an energy, a charisma — not that they’re all charismatic — but just that kind of flavor of a vibration of a beauty. I don’t know. I think it’s the Androgynous quality. It’s like what makes David Bowie sexy. I guess it kind of is the Androgyny, the shape shifting — it’s just that they’re magical. Bottom line is, I think Transgendered people are magical, but most of them don’t know it. They think there’s something wrong with them — and I think that’s not a good paradigm at all. There’s nothing wrong with them. They’re just perfect the way they are. I mean, if they want to change their bodies, fine — but it makes me really sad that they feel like they have to fit in as male or female.

SO YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE A MORE HERMAPHRODITIC ENTITY EMERGE FROM THIS —

Annie Sprinkle: Well, I would just like to see more options. I would like to see people love themselves. You know, just be able to love themselves and to be loved for who they are and who they want to be — and I think it’s a whole lot better than it was.

LET ME ASK YOU THIS ABOUT TRANSGENDERED AND TRANSSEXUAL FOLKS: HOW ARE THEY AS LOVERS?

Annie Sprinkle: You can’t really generalize. Everyone is so unique.

IS IT DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO ANSWER THIS BECAUSE YOU FEEL THERE WOULD BE SOME RECRIMINATION FROM THE TRANS STATUS QUO?

Annie Sprinkle: Absolutely. There’s all kinds of political correctness, some of which is understandable. Absolutely.

THAT SEEMS TO RESTRICT —

Annie Sprinkle: If I can just say this: Transgendered people are hot and erotically gifted. They have an eroticism that’s magical.

I THINK IT’S WONDERFUL THAT YOU SAY THAT.

Annie Sprinkle: Some people find that offensive.

BUT IT’S HIGHLY COMPLIMENTARY.

Annie Sprinkle: I think so, but you could say that I’m fetishizing them or, you know, thinking of them as sex objects — but personally I don’t think being a sex object is necessarily a bad thing at all.

IT’S WHAT PEOPLE ARE BORN TO BE. ISN’T THAT OUR JOB ON THIS PLANET?

Annie Sprinkle: Not everybody’s.

BUT THE PREPONDERANCE OF PEOPLE’S JOBS —

Annie Sprinkle: Obviously, some people are going to find Transgender people disgusting, sick and absolutely unappealing — to the point that they want to kill them.

YES THEY WILL. THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO FEEL THAT WAY.

Annie Sprinkle: Yeah, so that’s why I felt like, over all these decades, it was really important to make Transgendered people feel sexy — because a lot of them felt there was something wrong with them.

OKAY — YOU MAKE THE STATEMENT THAT YOU THINK TRANSSEXUAL PEOPLE ARE SEXY AND HOT. TELL ME, HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING, WHAT TYPE OF A PERSON WOULD SAY THAT YOU HAD DONE A DISSERVICE TO THAT COMMUNITY —

Annie Sprinkle: Well, they might say that I should see the whole person. I should say they’re wonderful and kind or something. I don’t know — I should say they’re smart.

THEY ARE VERY SMART PEOPLE. TOO SMART TO BE STUCK WITH WHATEVER HAND THEY GOT DEALT —

Annie Sprinkle: Maybe they got the best hand, but they just don’t know it.

HOW WOULD THESE OBJECTIONS TO YOUR IDEAS PERCOLATE TO YOUR ATTENTION? WOULD YOU GET CALLS, OR LETTERS, OR GET RAGGED ON BY BLOGGERS? BECAUSE IT’S UNFAIR TO YOU TO RESTRICT YOUR ABILITY TO SAY SOMEBODY’S SEXY —

Annie Sprinkle: And my intention is to build up, to support, to love — but I went to a lot of Transsexual pick-up bars where there were a lot of Transgender women working, and they’re treated badly. They’re totally objectified, and not treated as well. So, that’s sort of racism, classism, sexism — whatever.

THE SEXUAL WORLD ISN’T A DEMOCRACY —

Annie Sprinkle: Well, it’s a mirror of our society. That’s all. Pornography is a reflection of our society. For example, you have people who don’t mind male-to-females because they feel that it’s taking a step down. I don’t know if anyone’s said this, but in our society women becoming men, in general, is more offensive, more transgressive — because it’s taking a step up.

IN LINDA/LES & ANNIE, LES NICHOLS TALKS ABOUT HOW HE FELT LIKE HE GOT THIS NEW-FOUND RESPECT THAT HE DIDN’T GET BEFORE,—

Annie Sprinkle: That was an extremely controversial statement. Boy, we got some shit for that.

WHY?

Annie Sprinkle: He said he became a male for male privilege. I can’t tell you how many people said that was politically incorrect. You know? Not just that he feels that he was born in the wrong body, but that he wants male privilege or he wants some more power.

WELL, THERE’S A DOWNSIDE TO MALE PRIVILEGE. BELIEVE ME, IT’S NOT EASY BEING A GUY ALL THE TIME.

Annie Sprinkle: Yeah — I mean, I’m glad I’m a woman. I wouldn’t want to be one.

DO YOU STILL GET IT ON WITH TRANSSEXUALS?

Annie Sprinkle: My girlfriend can be very Androgynous. Especially when she’s doing construction. I have a Cis female partner —
but she’s very butch.

DO YOU FANTASIZE EVER THAT SHE’S A TRANSSEXUAL?

Annie Sprinkle: I definitely get very hot when she displays her masculine side. Absolutely. I think a lot of Lesbians — you know, it’s the whole butch femme thing — it’s a sort of Transgender — I mean, Lesbians are not Transsexual but they’re transgressing gender lines. I’ve been with men who are very feminine and women who are very masculine. I mean, this binary idea seems pretty ridiculous — totally ridiculous, to me. Even when someone says, “Welcome, ladies and gentleman” — I find that offensive.

WHAT SHOULD THEY SAY?

Annie Sprinkle: Well, what about differently-gendered people? I always try to say, “Welcome, ladies and gentlemen and everyone in between and beyond.” I try to be inclusive. In that sense I’m very politically correct. I want to include everybody.

THAT’S A NOBLE ASPIRATION.

Annie Sprinkle: When I do a workshop, I sometimes even put Trans first: “Trans, women and men.” Mix it up. Why are Trans always last? Let’s make them first. As a sex educator, I’ve had a lot of Trans people. I’ve made sure that I teach workshops that are Trans-friendly — and now I’m doing the eco-sex project with my partner, and it’s perfect for Trans. We’re switching the metaphor from Earth-as-mother to Earth-as-lover, and going from there. Is the Earth female or male? It’s all of that, but it’s Trans, it’s multi-gendered, it’s a “they.” So in that sense, I’m still having sex with Transgenders — it’s just that my lover’s the Earth, the sky, the sea. I’d like to see it as GLBTQIE, with the “E” for eco-sexual — and I think a lot of Transgendered people, as this movement grows, will really enjoy it.

IS TRANSSEXUALITY THE EMERGENCE OF A NEW TYPE OF HUMAN BEING ON THE EVOLUTIONARY SCALE?

Annie Sprinkle: Well, no — this has been around. It’s in all cultures —

YES — BUT IT’S ONLY BECAUSE OF THE MIRACLE OF MEDICAL SCIENCE THAT IT’S BEEN ABLE TO MOVE FORWARD IN THE LAST HALF CENTURY —

Annie Sprinkle: Well, I don’t know if it’s forward, necessarily. To me, really going forward means a lot more acceptance. But yeah, I think these young people are definitely a new breed, more self-accepting and with more options. There’s so many more options. That’s real movement forward: having more options. Just like in pornography: the more options, the more diversity, the more acceptance about all the different possibilities, the better.

OKAY.

Annie Sprinkle: Thank god, you know, we’re going beyond having to be male or female. It’s so boring.

THAT’LL MAKE A GREAT PULL-QUOTE: “BEYOND MALE OR FEMALE —”

Annie Sprinkle: Yeah.

I’M ONLY INCLUDING TRANSGENDERED-IDENTIFIED INDIVIDUALS IN THIS BOOK, BUT I REALIZED YOU WOULD HAVE TO BE THE EXCEPTION BECAUSE YOU HAVE HANDS-ON EXPERIENCE, LITERALLY. SO, YOU’RE AN HONORARY TRANSSEXUAL HERE.

Annie Sprinkle: Well, thank you. I’m very proud. I hope I make the cut. I’d like to think that I was one of the first female Tranny fetishists.

OKAY.

Annie Sprinkle: Oops! That’s bad. That’s like really politically incorrect — I get real shit for that.

THAT’S GOOD.

Annie Sprinkle: “The first female Tranny fetishist” — well, “Tranny” is a bad word. How about, “Transgender fetishist —”

FOR EVERY RAISED EYEBROW YOU GET, YOU’LL GET FIFTY HUGS. I WOULDN’T WORRY ABOUT IT. THERE’S A LOT OF VIGILANTES OUT THERE LOOKING FOR OTHERS TO SLIP UP. SOME COMMISSAR IS ALWAYS WAITING FOR YOU TO SAY THE WRONG THING —

Annie Sprinkle: So far, so good. ~